Welcome to the 2nd Discussion!
I hope you are enjoying this much loved Austen classic! I know for many of you, this is your favorite out of all Austen’s books and I hope you are loving it still!
Well, without further ado, here are the questions!
Discussion Questions:
- Why does Mrs. Gardiner caution Elizabeth about her romance with Mr. Wickham? Why does she provide this advice?
- What important insight into Mr. Wickham’s character can be inferred based upon his shift in affections from Elizabeth to Miss King?
- Why is Elizabeth able to exculpate Mr. Wickham’s wanting to marry for money but not Charlotte’s? What comment could Austen be making about the two sexes?
- How does Austen show that societal marriage restrictions were not only placed on women?
- How is Mr. Darcy’s marriage proposal similar and dissimilar to Mr. Collins’?
- What does Mr. Bennet’s rationale about Lydia’s safety in Brighton reveal about his concern for all his daughters?
- What might have happened if Elizabeth had accepted Darcy’s first proposal? Do you
think he really expected her to accept? How does the first proposal change their feelings
for, and opinions of, each other? - What would the novel look like if written from Mr. Darcy’s point of view?
- Why is Elizabeth so anxious to distrust Mr. Darcy at the start of the novel, and to instead trust Mr. Wickham?
- How do Elizabeth Bennet’s ideas on marriage differ from her society’s? Which characters in the novel share Elizabeth’s views of marriage and which characters reflect society’s perspective?
- Tell us your feelings about the characters. Mr. Wickham? Darcy? Lizzy? Lydia? Jane? etc.
I love it when you answer the questions above but I also love your string of thoughts after reading the current volume we are at! Anything goes! Thanks for participating, this journey is so much fun with you all!!!!
Comment away!
The Hunt for Paperbacks 
First thing, The little drawings are adorbs.
Q1) I think Mrs. Gardiner mainly cautions lizzy because she wants her niece to be rational and has her best interests at heart.
Q8) I thinkk if the novel was written from Mr. Darcy’s POV it would be lost of brooding and why doesnt she love me type stuff which on one hand would be great to read and on the other I AM SO TIRED OF WHINY PEOPLE OVER THEIR LOVE LIFE, its why i hate Anna & the french kiss (amongst other reasons). But i would actually really like to read a variation where it is in his POV because it would be so great to see his insights on so many events.
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I agree with you about Mrs. Gardiner. I think she just wants the best for Lizzie and that is why she cautioned her about Wickham. I don’t think that Lizzie was ever really on the way to falling in love with him. He was kinda like her first hard crush. They really bonded over Darcy and his rudeness and horribleness. I just didn’t see Lizzie ever really falling head over heels for Wickham.
I have read a series from Darcy’s POV and loved it so much. It was the Fitzwilliam Darcy, Gentlemen series and I highly recommend it. Book 1 is An Assembly Such as This. I also really enjoyed Darcy’s Diary by Amanda Grange. I didn’t think Anna and the French Kiss was as great as all the hype said. I gave it 3 stars.
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I completely agree with Wickham bring her first crush!! That is the best way to describe their relationship. I also don’t ever see her truly falling in love with him, she has more sense than that.
I also read Darcy’s Diary and enjoyed it.
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Okay so for once I am going to attempt and answer the questions(I always get so into my own thoughts that I forget to answer the questions so this time I will do the questions first) but apologies for them being all mixed up.
3. In regards to Elizabeth and her views on marriage I think Elizabeth considers it acceptable for men to marry for money but she believes so strongly in love that she believes her female friends should not marry for money but for love. Hence why she doesn’t agree with Charlotte marrying Mr. Collins but agrees with Wickham and Ms King. I also think that Elizabeth, having met Mr. Collins and knows what he is like, just doesn’t see her friend being happy with him. She has more of an investment with Charlotte than Wickham so she cares who Charlotte marries but in regards to Wickham is like meh.
2. But I think Austen put in about Wickham chasing Ms. King for her money is opening Elizabeth and the reader to see him as a fortune hunter and prepares them for the revelation that Wickham attempted to elope with Darcys sister in order to obtain her fortune.
1. Mrs. Gardiner says that Wickham is not a good match for Elizabeth because of his lack of money. In the age where reputation means everything she tells Elizabeth to not become further attached to Wickham to avoid embarrassment. She is protecting her niece from an unsuitable match.
6. Mr. Bennet’s reasoning behind letting Lydia go to Brighton is very blasé. He lets her go because he believes the colonel will make sure she doesn’t get into trouble. I’m sorry but surely this man has better things to do than to keep an eye on Lydia? I mean I started to have reservations towards Mr. Bennet before this but this just kinda put everything into perspective for me. He is very detached from his family, preferring to hold up in his study instead of dealing with the problems that face his family. He is a weak father with his foolish indulgence of Lydia’s immature behaviour. I mean it’s asking for trouble! I couldn’t help but compare Mr. Bennet and the sensible Gardiner relatives. They take Jane to London to help distract her from the unhappiness over Bingley. Mr. Bennet suggesting Elizabeth developing a crush on Wickham whereas Mrs Gardner recognises that the officer is not a suitable match for her niece.
7. I don’t think Elizabeth would accept the first proposal. She refuses him because of the judgments she has already made about him, his arrogance, his role in disinheriting Wickham and not to mention his role in breaking up Jane and Bingley! But also the proposal had to happen so Darcy would write the letter. Darcys letter begins a humbling process for both Elizabeth and Darcy which results in a maturation of each of their attitudes toward the other. Darcy has a blow to a pride which him to respond to Elizabeth’s anger. After reading the letter Elizabeth is forced to see how she misjudged Darcy and Wickham and she is now humbled enough to see Darcy in a new light. Without the letter, which was so out of character for proud Darcy, Elizabeth would never have opened herself up for these new feelings.
5. Darcy’s proposal dwells, at length, on Elizabeth’s social inferiority ( I mean I can see how Elizabeth’s polite rejection soon turned to angry accusation). Darcy is allowing his pride to guide him by emphasising Elizabeth’s lower rank more than asking her to marry him. Darcy must prioritise love over his sense of pride before he is worthy of Elizabeth’s love. And not spend so much time emphasising her lower rank and unsuitability for marriage to him. “He was not more eloquent on the subject of tenderness than of pride” Mr Collins proposal to Elizabeth was very much on his reasons for marriage, why he wants to be married not why he wants to marry Elizabeth. Both men don’t focus on their feelings(if any, in the case of Collins) for Elizabeth, a girl who wants to marry for love.
9. I think this just goes back to the original title ‘First Impressions’. Elizabeth’s first experience with Darcy was not a good one. He was proud and insulted her. Whereas Wickham was this charismatic handsome young man.
11. Okay can I just take a second to rant about Lady Catherine? Like I’m sorry but who thinks they are so important that they have a right to criticise other people so much? I have no idea why Collins praises her so much. To tell Elizabeth, to her face, that her and her sister were badly reared because her mother didn’t get her a governess? She brings up the Bennet girls lack of musical and artistic tendencies as well as Elizabeth’s own impudence all before the end of night. My god she is a hard to please woman!
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You have so many good points here! I want to comment on all of them but I’m gonna try to refrain myself from writing a super long response.
Lady Catherine is really something else. I really liked the part near the end of Elizabeth’s visit, where Austen writes that there were some points in the conversation that Lady Catherine was unable to answer her own questions. She really just likes to hear herself speak!
I think Collins likely talks her up so much because it reflects well on himself. He’s certainly proven himself not to be humble and by praising her he in some way praises himself because of his connection to her.
I really like your response to Q5. Neither man appealed to Elizabeth’s desire for love in a marriage. And you’ve gotten me thinking a lot about how pride and prejudice plays into that proposal. I think I’d really benefit from reading this a second time, there’s a lot that seems like it’d be easier to understand another time around!
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I agree with what you said about Mr. Collins. Mr. Collins reminds of a little kid who gets picked by the teacher to do a task that everyone wants and is proud about it all day and rubs it in everyone’s face. Mr. Collins is not a likable person and I can’t imagine he was though much of until Lady Catherine choose him. That he rubs it in makes me think that he wasn’t and wants all the people he meets to know how important he is because everyone made him feel unimportant.
I wonder what took up the Lady Catherine part of his conversation before he meet her.
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Maybe about the wonderful fortune that was coming his way from the Bennets lol!
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You hit the nail in the head in regards to Mr. Bennet. Austen always gives the parents some sort of flaw. She gently makes fun of them and the flaws sometimes lead to major consequences for the other characters.
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Q9. Because Darcy was rude to her and showed that he thought her family below him. Wickham was kind and talked and flattered her and her family. I would have distrusted and disliked Darcy if he had said that about me at a ball and don’t blame Elizabeth in her dislike. But I do blame her for trusting Wickham. If it had been any story but about Darcy she would have been much more likely to distrust it and really think about it. Like if it had been about Bingley. She would have distrusted it. But her disliking Darcy already for having insulted her it was just what she wanted to hear. That she was right for the beginning and Darcy is a stuck up jerk.
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I completely agree! I think that if Mr. Wickham had been talking about any other person Lizzy would have had zero interest in what he was saying. It was only because she had already made up her mind to dislike Mr. Darcy that she was remotely intrigued by what he had to say.
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Q2. That Wickham is a fortune hunter and that his character lowed in my opinion for that point(in a way it prepares you for the finally truth about more Miss Darcy). I hate that Elizabeth was okay Wickham needs money so it’s okay he is a fortune hunter but Charlotte you must be poor and an old maid forever if you don’t marry for love and respect. Why is it okay for Wickham but not Charlotte? Because he is man. Lizzie is basically saying that without saying that. “Handsome young men must have something to live on as well as the plain” What about plain young women must have have a husband just like the handsome.
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The only excuse I can come up with for Elizabeth is that she knows and values Charlotte so she wants her to be loved and find love because she deserves it. But you are right, the plain young women must have something to live upon as well. And that was probably the most popular view in those times.
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I agree with you, Elizabeth’s feelings towards Charlotte’s choice seem to stem from her close relationship with her and thus her larger sense of disappointment, but it’s still a shame she wasn’t able to be supportive for her
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I want to answer Q3 but I’m not sure how much I might derail here.
So, I know a lot of people in this group say they prefer P&P to S&S but I wasn’t so sure. It was only a few chapters before the end of Volume 2 that I could really feel the strength of this book, and also when I started to like Elizabeth 🙂
I’m honestly not totally sold on Elizabeth, and part of it comes back to Q3. Before reading the book, I thought her character was a woman who defies norms and does her own thing. This hasn’t really changed but with her comments on the lack of “accomplished women” and her different opinions for Wickham versus Charlotte really bothered me. I thought she’d be a progressive woman, a feminist before her time as Austen depicts the issues with a patriarchal society, but instead she seems to be against women as Miss Bingley suggested in Volume 1.
I’m sure this will be a contentious comment as I know Elizabeth is a favourite of many but first book impressions for me lowered my opinion of her. I’m sorry!! I hope it’ll get better and maybe I can just blame this on the time period!
I will say that with the more recent chapters I’m coming to like Elizabeth more so maybe she will redeem herself in my eyes after all!
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I can’t wait to see what you think of Emma. I am not really looking forward to rereading Emma as it is my least favorite book because of the main character(I was in the being but now as the time draws near I am remembering all the things I disliked about it).
I have always thought Elizabeth unfair to Charlotte. From my first read. She has very strong opinions and needs to learn that not all her opinions are correct. Which she is starting to see. I have very strong opinions and have the same problem as Elizabeth. I judge to quickly and on what I think. I am trying not to do that. I would have sadly done the same thing as Elizabeth because my pride was hurt. Darcy hates Wickham. I hate Darcy so I am going to love Wickham. If Wickham’s story had been about Bingley she would have questioned it but because it was about Darcy who she already disliked and it proved she was right about him she believed it.
“The accomplished women” thing I agree with Elizabeth. Darcy was talking about a perfect women and one doesn’t exist. I didn’t think that she was against women but saying no one in the world has all those things and is perfect.
I can understand why you don’t really care for Elizabeth. Everyone likes different characters.
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I know very little about Emma so I look forward to reading that one!
With the accomplished women, it bothered me more because in my thinking, I believe men likely don’t require half of what women do to be considered accomplished. It rubbed me the wrong way that she didn’t take that path with her line of thought so it was an off comment for me
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Without going into to much detail…. I also cannot stand Emma (the character) I am really interested to see how everyone responds to her as well!
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Q4 We definitely see that the importance of a good marriage weighs heavily on men as well. Darcy of course knows he has to marry at a certain rank so he tries to keep his distance from Elizabeth.
With Colonel Fitzwilliam too, he totally shut down Elizabeth because his economic position demands that he has a wife with a larger fortune.
I’m not really sure what to think of his attachment to Elizabeth. He seems to like her but knows that he can’t be with her. Still, he continues to show his affection after making this clear to her. What’s going on?
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Colonel Fitzwilliam I have always wished was a more developed character. Colonel Fitzwilliam is more like Bingley. I can see Bingley having fallen in love(or more fancied himself in love) with many different beauties from every place he visited and bet they were attached to him but he didn’t marry them. He knew that paying to much attention to one girl would raise exceptions but bet he still talked and danced with them and thought nothing of it. “Women sometimes think admiration means more then it does.” I bet many mothers were in despair of not having their daughter catch Mr. Bingley. I see Colonel Fitzwilliam doing the same as Bingley. He is always having a crush on someone. Plus it must be so boring with Lady Catherine and Elizabeth was the only one around and a new agreeable women is always nice to have around when you have to visit your aunt that is very tiresome and always favoring your cousin.
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That makes sense to see him in the same light as Bingley! I don’t know if we see Fitzwilliam again but I wonder what he’d be like somewhere like at a ball with many other girls to entertain him
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Q9 I think there’s two points to this. First, with her dislike of Darcy, Elizabeth even says it herself later that she enjoyed having that dislike against him even without a strong reason for it. He doesn’t present himself well in their first meetings and so she’s able to form that opinion very easily, and then when Wickham comes along with his stories she can back up her dislike with a “legitimate” reason.
For trusting Wickham so easily I think it’s both that he provides this reasoning for disliking Darcy and they’re able to bond over it, as well as that she’s taken in by him. As I believe The Reading Rebel mentioned above, he’s her first strong crush, and he compliments her vanity by devoting his attentions to her, as she’s so often to say.
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I think the best thing I’m taking away from these book club reads is the humour Jane Austen employs! I’m really enjoying her style of writing.
One of my fave moments from this volume was probably Elizabeth and Wickham’s last conversation over dinner. Good on her for making him squirm! (In related news, I’ve got a fun post planned for tomorrow’s bookstagram challenge!)
Not that it was funny, but I also liked the final line of this volume: To Pemberley, therefore, they were to go.
I’m excited for where this final volume is leading!
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I look forward to seeing your picture for tomorrow’s prompt. I am having trouble with my Jane picture but I think I finally have an idea.
I loved that moment. Wickham deserved that. What Wickham did to Georgina was so horrible. He preyed on a 15 year old girl for her money and for pay back of course. I still think Willoughby wins as a villain over Wickham so far. But still a Volume to go so we will see.
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If you love Jane Austen’s humor I highly recommend Georgette Heyer. She is amazing.
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I’ll check her out, thanks!
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I think one of the most interesting parts of this volume was just after Lydia left for Brighton and Austen talks about the relationship between Mr and Mrs Bennett. She writes very clearly that Mr Bennet doesn’t love Mrs Bennett anymore and that Elizabeth is aware of this. I think this is the real reason why she knows she will only marry for love. She was raised in a house that shows how unsuitable the parents are for each other and she could never be like that with the man she chooses to marry. This is also why I think she has such a problem with Charlotte marrying Mr Collins. She cares deeply for Charlotte and does not want to see her friend in the same situation as her father.
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This part certainly helped understand Elizabeth’s motives! I do see how this would influence her feelings about Charlotte’s future, good point!
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